Quote from Samebet777 on 2021-03-17, 9:37 am

I'm in the same boat...  Hot and cold with very little consistency.

This is a great topic to discuss.  How do you practice?  I know a lot of people with practice rigs, but they just play.  They dont work to fine tune something on their toss.  It's like playing a piece of music.  When you are learning, you might practice a section over and over and over.  In craps, we might practice setting the dice over and over and over....   Yet, so many times we just want to play.  Sure, there's benefit in playing and getting comfortable with the game, but if you want to level up.  Target your practice...

Quote from BigT on 2021-03-17, 11:06 pm

This is probably an area that we don't focus enough on, "targeting our practice".  We have worked on our landing zone by using some electrical tape to create a small box on the layout.  This seemed to work well to give us a spot to aim for while still getting the end result.  But we kind of got away from it after a while.

By the way, I saw a pretty cool landing zone practice method from Same Bet. I might have to get some fireballs and give it a shot.  Check it out.

We have also worked on the angle that our dice are landing.  We used a driveway marker rod and laid it across the rail just before the spot where our dice would intersect if they were traveling through the air at the perfect angle to hit the desired landing zone.  We put a little mark on the rail to add/remove the rod anytime we want to use it for a practice session, but again, we just don't do it enough I think.

Here is an image to give you an idea.

To find the right placement for it, we simply used a speed square, you could use anything that has a 45 degree angle (if thats the angle you want to hit anyway). Find your intersection from the landing zone to the rod that will sit on your rail, then move it towards your throwing position about an inch.  When your dice just barely clear the rod, you should be hitting the right angle.

I think my biggest problem is grip.  Any tips on best ways to work on grip?

Quote from JJB on 2022-04-12, 12:22 pm

Big T, I agree with you 100%  Everyday I work on my toss, keeping the dice together, causing them to rotate together, land together, and not double pitch.  I use 1 4/5 4/5 dice set, and have the same issue, seems that the perfect throw is a 5/2 or 4/3.  I've noticed though that on a lot of perfect throws, my dice tend to explode and not land correctly, even on the softest of throws.  I've been working on making sure my dice are flat to the table going through the air.  I've backed off on being a 45 degree angle guy (but I've done many exercises like that!)  I'll have moments where I shoot 60 rolls and only have 3 sevens, but other rolls where my SRR is closer to 4 or 5.

For grip (and assuming from all your pics and tools you've tried this) the best thing I found was a dice gripper.  I started there and since have modified my grip, but have started to get the dice to rotate continuously almost 90% of the time.  There is one guy on YouTube I've watched (not very well shot videos but great info and good shots) that has made some comments and points about his grip.  If you want check him out, DiceCamp, I've found him to be one of the most consistent.  He made a comment about most of his grip is just middle finger and thumb, and its all about when the thumb releases.  I stopped listening to all the different 'classes' and focusing on his information since he had the shot and consistency that I wanted.  Since then my shot has settled down and started to be more consistent.  Now I'm fortunate enough to have the space for a 12ft table so I built one and that is what I practice on, but still have ups and downs.  I'd love to talk more as it seems like we are on the same journey.  I believe seven avoidance is possible, it just takes a lot of practice and concentration as we are landing square dice on a flat surface.  Hope to learn more from each other.  Jeremy

Quote from BigT on 2023-02-06, 1:16 am

Quote from JJB on 2022-04-12, 12:22 pm

Big T, I agree with you 100%  Everyday I work on my toss, keeping the dice together, causing them to rotate together, land together, and not double pitch.  I use 1 4/5 4/5 dice set, and have the same issue, seems that the perfect throw is a 5/2 or 4/3.  I've noticed though that on a lot of perfect throws, my dice tend to explode and not land correctly, even on the softest of throws.  I've been working on making sure my dice are flat to the table going through the air.  I've backed off on being a 45 degree angle guy (but I've done many exercises like that!)  I'll have moments where I shoot 60 rolls and only have 3 sevens, but other rolls where my SRR is closer to 4 or 5.

For grip (and assuming from all your pics and tools you've tried this) the best thing I found was a dice gripper.  I started there and since have modified my grip, but have started to get the dice to rotate continuously almost 90% of the time.  There is one guy on YouTube I've watched (not very well shot videos but great info and good shots) that has made some comments and points about his grip.  If you want check him out, DiceCamp, I've found him to be one of the most consistent.  He made a comment about most of his grip is just middle finger and thumb, and its all about when the thumb releases.  I stopped listening to all the different 'classes' and focusing on his information since he had the shot and consistency that I wanted.  Since then my shot has settled down and started to be more consistent.  Now I'm fortunate enough to have the space for a 12ft table so I built one and that is what I practice on, but still have ups and downs.  I'd love to talk more as it seems like we are on the same journey.  I believe seven avoidance is possible, it just takes a lot of practice and concentration as we are landing square dice on a flat surface.  Hope to learn more from each other.  Jeremy

Hey Jeremy, good stuff!  The middle finger and thumb being most of the grip is what I do.  I still have my index and ring fingers on the dice, but I try to make them very light to act as guides more than anything.

I've also found that the shape my hand makes will effect things as well.  If I make too much of a "U" shape between my fingers and thumb as I grip, I lose a lot of consistency.  When I make more of a "C", this tends to help significantly.  I think it really comes down to the contact point of your fingers.

I have a dice gripper and like it as well!  Highly recommend.

You still throwing?

Quote from JJB on 2023-02-06, 11:08 am

Hey Big T-

Yes I'm still throwing.  At the moment I have my table torn apart, doing some final modifications and trying to get it from just a practice rig to a more final state, but that isn't what we are discussing here!

I've pulled out my dice gripper and started with just working on grip.  I know that is the foundation for everything, but want to make sure every grip is where it should be.  I do follow the same strategy as you where my thumb and middle finger hold the dice, and the outter fingers are just a guide.  The frustrating thing is still where what I see as the perfect throw a lot of times turns up to be a double pitch on axis 7.  I'm working on making sure my dice don't explode open, but land, tap the back wall and die.

I'm also working on just a slight tilt to my throw to see how that changes anything.  It seems when the dice are perfect and hit flat is the time more often than not that the dice just explode open.  If a put just a slight tilt to the dice, I want to see if it changes the landing consistently to set down more vs slamming the table.  Have no data or outcome on that yet.

I have also gone back to what you mentioned at the end and trying to make more of a C.  I do notice things work better when I concentrate on this.  Its funny to think that one setup (creating the C) has more effect than almost anything else, and I agree with you that it really comes down to contact and pressure on the dice.

Have you gone any further into a more 45 degree angle or coming in low?  Just curious what peoples true opinion is on this.  My thought is that after good grip and release, the next move is to have the least amount of energy as possible, so the dice just kiss the back wall and drop.

Anyways thanks for the response!

Jeremy

Quote from BigT on 2023-03-12, 4:01 pm

Quote from JJB on 2023-02-06, 11:08 am

Hey Big T-

Yes I'm still throwing.  At the moment I have my table torn apart, doing some final modifications and trying to get it from just a practice rig to a more final state, but that isn't what we are discussing here!

I've pulled out my dice gripper and started with just working on grip.  I know that is the foundation for everything, but want to make sure every grip is where it should be.  I do follow the same strategy as you where my thumb and middle finger hold the dice, and the outter fingers are just a guide.  The frustrating thing is still where what I see as the perfect throw a lot of times turns up to be a double pitch on axis 7.  I'm working on making sure my dice don't explode open, but land, tap the back wall and die.

I'm also working on just a slight tilt to my throw to see how that changes anything.  It seems when the dice are perfect and hit flat is the time more often than not that the dice just explode open.  If a put just a slight tilt to the dice, I want to see if it changes the landing consistently to set down more vs slamming the table.  Have no data or outcome on that yet.

I have also gone back to what you mentioned at the end and trying to make more of a C.  I do notice things work better when I concentrate on this.  Its funny to think that one setup (creating the C) has more effect than almost anything else, and I agree with you that it really comes down to contact and pressure on the dice.

Have you gone any further into a more 45 degree angle or coming in low?  Just curious what peoples true opinion is on this.  My thought is that after good grip and release, the next move is to have the least amount of energy as possible, so the dice just kiss the back wall and drop.

Anyways thanks for the response!

Jeremy

I have found the angle coming in really depends on the table.  At the Bellagio and MGM in Vegas, the tables are pretty favorable to a 45.  Some of my local casinos in the St. Louis area are really bouncy.  I've found that lowering the angle and letting them sort of roll into the wall produces the best results.

I really do think it depends on the table as far as that goes.  When I get to a new table, I try to watch how the dice react to other shooters and decide from there.  If I don't get any good info from others, I'll try a 45 to start and maybe adjust a bit from there depending on what they are doing.

Once you find the "sweet spot" on a table, run with it!  That's what has worked best for me at least.